When I went to Ojai, California for the first time to listen to Krishnamurti in 1977, I met a man who said – ” I made a mistake in reading and listening to Krishnamurti. I understand what he says to be true but I do not know how to be free from my problems. He does not give any method or system or belief to follow. Now I am not able to sleep well at night. Now there are more conflicts in my life because the desire to be free is strong but there is no release or breakthrough.”
Many years ago, Krishnamurti was giving a talk in New York. During that talk, a lady got up from the audience and started shouting – ” Do not listen to this man (Krishnamurti). He is dangerous. ” Krishnamurti was quiet and allowed her to leave. After she left, K said to the audience – ” What she said is true !”
In Mahabharat, Duryodhana says – ” I know what is Dharma and what is Adharma. But I cannot live a life of Dharma ( goodness and love).” People who smoke cigarettes know that smoking is harmful to the body but they cannot give up smoking. The same is true for people who get angry very quickly. We do many things harmful to our body and mind even though we know that it is harmful.
Intellectual understanding of concepts is not enough to free us from the problems created by habitual way of living. Even our thinking and talking become habitual. We react too fast when our ways of living or beliefs are challenged. The more intellectual a person is, quicker he responds out of previous knowledge or conditioning. In such a way of responding or reacting, nothing new can be learned.
When a person becomes very curious about his own thinking and when he is able to observe thoughts from a different dimension called awareness, there is a possibility of seeing how problems like fear, anger, conflicts in relationship are born. Then only there is a possibility of freedom from all psychological problems. Love, beauty, happiness come from within as space is created within the mind to observe itself in silence.
Krishnamurti’s teachings are about this choiceless awareness which is blocked by habitual ways of our thinking and living. People who are ambitious to become rich, famous, powerful in society, even ambitious to become famous spiritual teachers will find it difficult to understand and appreciate his teachings.
Dr Harshad Parekh taught in various Krishnamurti schools in India for 28 years.
The teachings are about freedom
THE IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION
–understanding krishnamurti–
Dedicated to my friend Suresh Manjani. CHAPTER 1
Pg 1 to 20
Dialogues between long time friends, who have long exposure to The teachings, having been blessed with listening to krishna ji, during his life time. In these dialogues I have tried to incorporate different perspectives of people from different backgrounds, who have listened to him First Hand ; been in his presence and seen the great intensity generated in his dialogues and talks.His very presence created something which can not be described in words. The writer speaks from his understanding but does not make any claim to having understood or being illuminated or enlightened or interpreter or spokesperson. He writes this ,merely to share his understanding, and of that of his friends and wishes to leave something for the traveller who comes by, on an earnest Quest of the Unknown.
If it clears some doubts,blocks,cobwebs ; or exposes the impediments to understanding , it would gladden the writer otherwise let it be an historical record of my journey and that of my friends.The writer has tried to be honest and is cognizant of the responsibility that vests on his shoulders, not to deviate from facts. There might have crept some grammatical or other errors,failure to recall actual events,failure to objectively access and reproduce facts. It is not intended to malign,denounce and is a dialogue between equals.The words said by participiants may not be their actual views and this part of it is fictitious. Thanks and Regards
Day 1
Deepak- We have been at this for umpteen number of years , enquiring ,discussing ,reading , listening to videos etc ;what have we understood.
Dr Indra- Well, reading and discussing the teachings , something becomes clearer and subsequently we are less attached,less anxious etc.
.
Bashu- The teachings reveal to us that we are a bundle of thought and thought is responsible for our suffering.
.
Murthy- Instead of hypothetical
enquiry if we discuss some specific actual problem like fear ,anger, jealousy,insecurity,loneliness etc it would be better.
Deepak- You mean if we thoroughly examine one factor we can understand the whole of our psychological being.
.
Dr Indra- Yes. If we understand that we create the opposite pole therefore we are never able to understand fear etc.or be free of it.
Bashu- Thought creates the opposite .
Murthy- – We all understand what is fear . How it distorts our life ,cripples and paralysis us. Makes our life shoddy.But we are not free from it.
Deepak – Yes. But we are all the time trying to free ourselves from fear .
Murthy- Inspite of all our sincerity
Reading discussing having dialogues ,we are not free from fear, pain, loneliness.
Deepak -Are they not all the Same in the sense they are the movement of the me in Time.
Dr Indra- By reading , having dialogues ,probing,enquiring , we will ultimately be free.
Deepak- When? Time is running out.
Murthy- What else we ought to be doing.
Deepak- Volumes and Volumes have been written and are being read and discussed by us .But are we free.
Dr. Indra – Maybe we have not really understood. If we remain with what is it will dissolve.
Deepak- That is what Krishna ji says and we keep on trying it in the hope that some day we will be able to do it.
Bashu- Are we trying to understand Krishna ji or ourselves.We are merely discussing ideas,theories, opinions and not actual facts of our daily life therefore dialogues become superficial . We are caught in explanations .
The explained has to be explored , examined, experimented with , in our daily life.
Murthy- Even in the discussions we are seldom open . We hardly meet each other. Somebody says something other person says something else. We hardly meet.
Bashu- Sirs, If we discuss theory, ideas, concepts, then what I think, my opinion becomes all important and we end up in conflict.
Deepak- Discussions are becoming superficial , bookish, not based on the actual facts of my daily life, . Krishnamurti wrote and said from his own understanding, perception, observation, but we speak from knowledge. Knowing is not understanding. Knowing is a hindrance. Do you see this that we are borrowing, copying, imitating not only krishna jis words, what he has said and mistake it for being some sort of understanding.
There is a waste difference between knowing something and understanding something.
Dr Indra- First the brain forms an image ,a concept and then tries to implement it so there is effort, will, but krishna ji is not talking about doing something. He is saying the moment you see what is and that the brain is creating the opposite, it drops.
Deepak- Has it dropped.? If not why? That is what I am asking? All of us feel rather deeply that the teachings are a clear stream of FRESH WATER.
Then the question is where have we gone wrong.
Bashu- When we read or listen to something ,we form an idea ,a conclusion based on our own experiences. Then that cystalises in the form of idea or opinion, a conclusion and becomes Part of our memory and then we act from it.
Deepak- Careful Sir, We seldom act. What we call action may be just a reaction.
Murthy ji – May be we should go into what is action?
Dr Indra- There are always opposing view points.
Deepak- Sirs, Are discussions becoming lifeless ,a matter of routine , discussing the same things again and again , sharpening our intellectual capacities. Thought is very cunning,deceptive , we are gullible and easily stray away. If thought as time is used to understand there will never be any understanding. Do what you will. Thought subsides when there is great interest, intensity..
This is were the traditionalist went wrong – they tried to control thought, subvert it.
Day 2
Before we start our deliberations it must be very clear that our intention is to find out the blocks ,the pitfalls in understanding the teachings. Many times one may use strong words to emphasize something ,but it is not our job to denounce,deprecate or belittle any one as we are all friends and are EQUALS. Bashu ji you start today.
Bashu- It is only in relationship that we can understand
Deepak- Tell me how? I don’t accept what krishna ji says.
Murthy – You have been reading for so long. How can you say you don’t understand this.
.
Dr Indra- Everybody is interpreting the teachings in his own way but nobody is living the teachings.
Dr Indra- There is No clear understanding about what are the teachings.
Bashu- The teacher said I am merely a mirror in which you can see yourself .
Murthy- In relationship only , if I am fairly honest ,I can see how I behave, what are my reactions , Whether I am greedy, ambitious. I can see what I actually am.
Dr Indra- – I see it then what . I keep on seeing it but nothing changes.I see I am greedy, fearful,
Bashu- If you remain with what is ,it changes.
Murthy- We are always trying to change , “what is.”
Dr Indra- We Immediately create an opposite pole and start pursuing it.
Murthy- – We always try to get rid of what is, because it is unpleasant.
Deepak – We find it difficult to stay with what is.
Murthy- -We struggle to remain with what is .
Deepak- Trying to stay with what is ,is a positive action of will , effort ,thought and hence time . So we are moving in time. Instead if we just realise that there is No what should be. What should be is just an idea then we can naturally , easily without struggle be with what is.So we have to negate time. Bashu – In one’s observations supposing I find out that I am greedy or angry or jealous. The emotion ,the movement ,I name it as jealousy.
So I recognise it as jealousy . The moment I call it jealousy ,it’s opposite is also born which is Non- jealousy, Non greed.
Deepak- So Can we see without the concept , the idea . Our brains can see only through concepts .
Now , Can I realise that I am unable to see anything .
The moment you realise this , you are in a state of shock. You are not able to move .
Dr . Indra – Then what happens?
Deepak- Come to it ,Sir. Please come to it. Whatever I do is always in the field of known. Do we realise this that there are no answers in the known. Does the mind realise it’s petty, limited nature
Please remember Sirs, that we are all friends here and we are all Equals and I do not intend to interpret but share whatever limited understanding has come my way.
Day 3
Sirs, Dialogues have a place. They definitely throw light on the nature of our consciousness . Beyond that I wonder whether they bring great insight, understanding, a new perception. Krishna ji has done all the hard work but we speak from knowledge of what he said or what we think he said.Is there anything Original in us.
What do you say?
Bashu- If there is to be any understanding it has to be in ones day to day life.
Deepak- Yes, off course otherwise it just becomes theoretical. In olden Hindu tradition there was a practice of “Shastrartha”.
In this ,each wanted to defeat the opponent through logic. Superior logic is not superior understanding simply because it is based on knowledge,thought Thought can not liberate. Thought is always rooted in the past.
Murthy ji- There is subjective understanding and there is objective understanding. In objective understanding the subject does not interfere with observation.
Dr Indra kumar- Is the human mind capable of observation without the subject entering perception. The naming is from our knowledge.
Bashu- The seeing, the visual impact, is it independent of thought or we see through thought, the idea, the concept.
Murthy ji- If we can only see through thought then we are doomed. Because then we can’t see something new and besides since we see from our own experience, likes and dislikes we seldom see the same thing.
Deepak- Let us make it a little simpler. I meet somebody, thought responds and says he is a Hindu, He is a Muslim. So I fail to see the human being, respond as a human being.There is always a frame of reference in which actual contact ,empathy, meeting does not take place . I have limited my seeing through habit of naming which is thought.
Bashu- Have I actually seen this happening.
Or I accept what I have read. If I haave seen it. It is finished ,thought will loose it’s hold, grip.
Deepak- Thought has to realise that it is silly, repetitive, mechanical
, that it can move only in time. Time being the accumulated past, seeing the present in relation to the past and the projection which is the future. Everything we do is based on thought. We are the result of time. Time is bondage. Time cannot bring freedom, do what you will. There is freedom only when you go beyond time,When the movement of the self, in time Ceases.
So, How can I be out of Time.?
Day 4
Deepak- One really has to understand the nature of ones own consciousness, how it comes into being. Ones own desires, longings, pain, frustration, hurts everything. Nothing can be left out. When you minutely see all this ,then the distance between the thinker and his thought vanishes. Then you can have an insight that there is No self other than the movement. The movement has created an artificial entity “the mover ” the achiever,the doer, which is an illusion. The realisation that there is no seperate self may be the only thing to realise. So the only logical, rather insane, somewhat impossible question is Can time as a movement End, Can thought Stop ? When you come to the IMPOSSIBILITY OF IT, something happens.
Murthy ji- What happens?
Bashu ji – I question you.
Deepak – By all means question me. But question what is said, not the person who has said it.
Dr Indra- What happens when I come to the impossibility of it.
Deepak- There is a cessation.
Bashu – You mean thought stops.
Deepak- Let us go simply about it. Why do we never say, I DON’T KNOW. Outwardly and inwardly we are only gathering knowledge.
When I Really say I don’t know, then I become innocent of time. The innocent brain can see, listen, learn ; not the brain which is crowded with knowledge. Knowledge limits us.
Murthy ji- If we don’t seek we will vegetate, we will stagnate. How will mankind progress.
Deepak – There is physical progress for sure but it does not percolate to phychological progress.
Dr Indra – We live in an acquisitive socity which leads to competition and hence wars.
Bashu ji- Thought seeks it’s gratification, which leaves a residue, the residue again seeks it’s fulfillment and the cycle goes on.
Murthy ji – How did the cycle start. Who put it in motion. Dr David Bohm and Krishna ji during one of the discussions did touch this point, Where Dr Bohm said that Mankind took a wrong turn and Krishna ji seemed to agree.
Deepak- I once put this question to Mr Raman Patel on the insistence of Dr Indra.
He said, ” We are taking the wrong turn all the time ”
Bashu – You are confusion and whatever you choose is from confusion.
Dr Indra- I am not clear about what was the wrong turn.
Deepak- Though this is more or less speculative but we will go into it, if you want to.
See, thought has to be used to survive in the physical world, but when it is used as a means to psychological security, the trouble begins because it becomes cunning, crooked, and all the trouble begins.
Bashu – Man has sought security. What is wrong with that. Most of the people who have read krishnamurti have formed some vague ideas about what he has said and think that seeking security is bad.
Murthy- We are following krishnamurti and not his teachings for the teachings say, Don’t follow anyone.
Dr Indra – There has to be a common ground to be able to discuss. Everybody knows and understands the word conditioning,and the context in which it was used by him, so we use it to communicate. After all, all of us are trying to understand the teachings, otherwise why would we be here.
Bashu- Repeating the word conditioning or saying Remain with what is, does not imply that we have understood it.Thought is deceptive and we are caught in words. So words have to be used carefully.People just throw Words here and there without really understanding them.
Deepak- How would we know whether a person is playing with words or using them hesitatingly, honestly.
Murthy ji- If there is an intensity in enquiry then that intensity will wipe away all the unnecessary garbage.
D- Yes. We have set notions and when one has a reference point then enthusiasm, inquisitiveness, intensity is diminished.
One has to ask ONESELF fundamental questions. What is thought. Why does it arise. Etc. We Never realise that my answer is according to krishnamurti and not what has been found out myself.
Sirs, Sow the question, let the question penetrate in the conscious and the subconscious and the say to yourself ———-I really don’t know . We are all too eager to find the answer
DAY 5
Dr Indra – You started this discussion by saying what have we understood after so many years.But I think the first step should be what do I want.So far I am not very clear what I want. I feel that the first step is to really understand what I want, what I seek.
Bashu – We all seek security.
Murthy ji – We want to solve our problems.
Deepak- Sirs, I am in pain and I want a way out.
Dr Indra – I have a fairly satisfying life. All my needs are taken care of. So I am asking what am I seeking.? and why.? I have tried to find out but without any success.
Bashu- Man lives in a pattern. From our childhood society has set up a pattern for us , to pass exams, get a job, get married . Before we know or understand anything we are already in it. We are unsure, confused, afraid and whatever questions arise in our mind ,in that impressionable age ,soon die out.
Deepak- When there is an impediment, a road block we wake up for a while but quickly set up another pattern.
Murthy – If one was completely satisfied physically and psychologically . Why would I seek. When I feel upset I pick up a book or see a video and I find solace.
Deepak – So it is fairly clear that all mankind seeks something . We all want to be happy, content, not hurt. There is the outward physical movement and the inward phychological movement.
Dr Indra- When I am hurt, I seek the opposite.
Deepak- Have you ever asked yourself, Who is Hurt.
Dr Indra – I am hurt.
Murthy – Who is the I who is hurt.
Dr Indra – krishna ji says you are Not hurt but the image you have about yourself is hurt.
Dr Indra – What is this image? I never actually understood what is this image. Could we go into it a little bit. Krishna ji says this and we accept it. We never really go so deep into it, so deep that it becomes our own baby, , an important part of my existence .
Murthy ji – We always choose what satisfies us , what is our own way of thinking, the explanation that suits us, that agrees with our own experience.
Bashu- Man chooses mechanically.
Deepak- Yes, we choose mechanically without giving it a thought.
Bashu- The image is the picture we have about ourself, what I think I am.
Murthy – Yes, and I may be a very different person than what I think I am.
Dr. Indra – We all think we are the most intelligent, that our opinion about the teachings or anything is the right one.
Opinions are based on my knowledge and my experience, both of which are sujective.My opinion and your opinion and the struggle begins about who is Right?
Deepak- Sirs. It may be usefull to understand the image making process, the instrument.
Bashu- The only instrument I have is thought.
Deepak- Yes. And thought moves in a certain way. Thought खंडन कर सकती है, तौल सकती है, विभाजित कर सकती है, वह सिर्फ़ एक
लिपिबद तरीके से ही कार्य कर सकती है। Now is understanding within the field of thought, knowledge, time.
Bashu – We listen or read something, we immediately translate it and form an idea or concept. Then we start scrutinising the idea, the concept, trying to understand what is being said or trying to impliment it.
Murthy – Yes, that is what we generally do.
Deepak – That is why krishna ji is saying Sirs, Nobody has understood.
Dr Indra – Why? I am not able to swallow what you say. Thought is the only instrument I have and you want to take it away.
Deepak- No Sir, just see the limitations of thought. , it’s actual nature, it’s inadequacy, ; that’s all.
Murthy – Yes, I get the point now. Understanding has nothing to do with knowledge, and we are always working in the field of Knowledge.
Deepak- Yes Sir. Just seeing the simple fact that no amount of knowledge will bring understanding, change, transformation, freedom. Just see it. Don’t move. Don’t jump to if and but, how, why, when. JUST SEE IT.
Day 6
Sirs, Let us continue we’re we left yesterday.
We have gone into the nature of thought. How it can move only in a certain way, in a certain direction, . How it functions, comparing, contrasting, accumulating, breaking up, analysing, adding, subtracting, modifying, moving, accepting rejecting . And we function through thought, . Our relationships, actions are all based on thought. How it divides and brings about conflict. And as long as it dominates, there will never be peace.
BUT PLEASE BEAR IT IN MIND AT ALL TIMES THAT WE ARE TALKING OF PHYCHOLOGICAL THOUGHT WHICH HAS ITS ROOTS IN THE ME.
Murthy – You are trying to bring in too many things, and then you are trying to condemn thought, but thought is required for all our actions, going from here to there, talking to someone, ; memory, remembrance, thinking, comparing, judging , knowledge do have a role to play in our life.
Bashu- You are speaking about thought in a disparaging way.
Dr Indra- One has to use thought.
Bashu- It is thought which creates division and conflict.
Deepak- Sirs, I am merely trying to show the way thought acts, it’s limitation, as it is based on memory, which is based on experience and knowledge.
Bashu – Thought is the mischief maker.
Deepak- A simple man who knows nothing may be more intelligent than the knowledgeable one. So let us keep it simple, otherwise we will get lost.
Sirs, We are fairly clear that thought is a movement. This movement which is mechanical we know as thinking. It is an active state which creates ( we are off-course talking psychologically) a static being who is thinking.
A permanent entity, the me, the” I “, the self.
This seperate Self seeks to protect itself, ensure its continuation, security. So man does all those activities which ensure his safety , survival,. All actions spring from this Self.
Day 7
Deepak- Now, Sirs, the question I would like to address is – Is there a Self.?A phychological entity other than the physical body or it is just a movement.
Is it ( the Self) fixed or constantly modifying, changing.? It is constantly wanting, seeking,gathering ,discarding, modifying, achieving, etc
It is never still.
Murthy – Do you speak from knowledge or actual perception.
Deepak – How can I tell, Sir. But you can find out if you want,whether I am lying or deceiving you. One of the things that may give an indication is whether there is a contradiction, ambiguity in the person and his conduct. Whether he is fractured or WHOLE. I really don’t know. The only thing I know is that if a person feels he has seen something, then the only thing he can do is to talk about it.
Dr Indra – Let us go on. How does one realise that there is No self.?
Bashu- The ancients realised this that there is only one source. Scientists also say all energy is one. They say energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It permeates through All animate and inanimate things.
Dr Indra – That vast energy concentrates in the individual. The individual is then conscious of himself. A seperate entity.
Murthy ji- This seperation is then nourished by society, which says achieve, excell, compete, desire, get , become. All of it further strengthens the self.
Deepak- The Self is always in conflict. It is in confusion, . There is contradiction hence choice. There is this and that, mine and thine.
Bashu – Scientifically it has been proven that energy cannot be created or destroyed but it can be modified
Deepak- Psychologically also the mind seeks continuity.
Dr Indra- They said that the division is false. It is MAYA, ILLUSION, NOT A FACT, MERE APPEARANCE.
Deepak – Unless one comes to it FIRST HAND, it is just speculation, imagination, and of no value.
Bashu – How can we see it that the Self is an Illusion.
Deepak – I think the intensity, the urgency of the enquiry, the great volume and force of energy so gathered, and the refusal to move from there ; breaks the self enclosing walls of the self. Thought Stops. When thought stops, there is actual seeing, listening, understanding which krishna ji talks about. Then you realise that there is No Self. It is an illusion created by thought. OH! It is such a Big Relief, if you actually come to it.
Day 8
Dr Indra – The central question according to me is what do I want and whether that is possible.
Murthy ji- All Mankind seeks happiness. Man seeks pleasure.
Bashu ji – What is pleasure?
Murthy ji – Well according to the dictionary the meaning of pleasure is – The feeling of being happy or satisfied, enjoyment ( प्रसन्नता या संतुष्टी, आनंद, सुख etc.
Bashu ji- Pleasure has a cause. Like I derive pleasure by reading a book of krishna ji or seeking a cricket match. It is always dependent on something.
Bashu ji – We seek pleasure and want to avoid pain. Now Why do we seek pleasure, a permanent state of happiness.
Dr Indra – We have to realise that this is an impossibility.
Bashu- If we realise that there can not be a permanent state of happiness, bliss, eternal pleasure then our want and desire will not be there. The fact that we feel it is possible , is the cause of our desire to search, seek.
Murthy – There cannot be pleasure without it’s shadow which is pain.
Deepak – This wanting is a movement from here to there. The desire or want is to get what you don’t have.
Bashu – is not this ,the movement of thought.
Murthy ji – Yes, off course it is so. The desire for more, seeking fulfillment, satisfaction, pleasure, becoming , wanting, trying to find peace, ; that eventually I will find something holy, true, that will give me lasting and permanent pleasure is an illusion created by thought.
Dr Indra- Life is in a state of flux. So living in an impermanent world you, seek performance, which may not exist.
Deepak- Yes.
Dr Indra – But my question is still unanswered. What am I seeking,? What do I want.
Deepak- We will try to approach it in a different way in a day or two.
Day 9
Sirs, I have received a number of queries, chief among them being what according to you is Seeing, Listening, understanding which has been so much emphasised by Krishna ji. Today I will speak a little bit then we can discuss if you feel the need.
SEEING, LISTENING,UNDERSTANDING
A simple act of seeing can transform a person. Now either we don’t want to see or we are incapable of seeing. Nothing can be done if a person does not want to see. Best to leave him alone.
Now, the person who wants to see but is unable to see ,let us talk to him. We don’t know what is seeing,so we will try to come to it by first seeing what is ” not seeing ”
Seeing from the past collected information, experience , memories associated to it is Not seeing in the truest sence of the word .It limits,clogs and taints what you are seeing. The very moment you realise this. YOU STOP. IN that moment there is the understanding, the seeing.
It is so simple, why make it so complex, Sir.
What is meant by understanding?
The understanding we know of is within the field of time. So it is not understanding. There cannot be any understanding within the field of Time. The ” understanding ” krishna ji is talking about is outside the field of time.
Recognising, knowing, , is all dependent on the past. It has nothing to do with Understanding .
When you see this simple fact then thought becomes still. IT stops . The movement of thought ends. This stillness gives birth to silence. In this silence there is a possibility of understanding.
There cannot be any understanding within the field of known, knowledge,time , call it what you will. When you listen, see, without the naming, the processing by thought, then there is a possibility of Understanding.
Day 10
Sirs, The teachings are pure, sublime, true, untainted. They emerge from a source other than knowledge , some perception which is original .To tell us about this perception words had to be used . This perception we receive as knowledge, something to be followed, understood, emulated, applied.
Murthy ji- Most religions started with some or the other perception ,of the great seers . They talked of Love,to be just, don’t kill,dont hurt . It was handed down to us as knowledge, as do’s and dont’s .
Bashu ji- The moment it becomes knowledge, it becomes fixed.
Deepak Yes. Knowledge is fixed. It has no life.
Bashu ji -But we cling to this knowledge .
Deepak- It becomes rigid, hard, solidifies. The moment it becomes knowledge it is dead, the moment we follow it ,we are also dead.
Murthy ji – Sirs, there are terrible things going on in the world. The Israel – Hamas war, the Ukrain – Russia war and many other countries on the brink of war, the simmering conflicts. The religious texts have they brought peace inwardly and outwardly. Obviously not.
Bashu- All religious texts extort Man to love and desist from killing. But where are we.?
Deepak- In one of the discussions , if I remember correctly, there was a reference about religious books ” the puranas” Which most admitted are a great text. Krishna ji asked, “What have you done with it? Sirs ;”
What we do with the teachings is our responsibility, whether we accept them, follow them, conceptualise them, apply them, dissect them , argue over them ,theorise them, memorize them, worship them, make them into a body of knowledge, authority,positive assertions,be aware , be with what is etc. etc. ——
all of which is a process of thought. We reduce it to knowledge, receive it as thoughts, ideas, through the intellect, which dominate our being, so it never penetrates that covering which is the ” me”
So, Please let us be careful.
Day 11
One woke up in silence. It was a quiet morning. Everything was silent. The dog barking in the distance was also within the silence. The pigeons flapping their wings, going about their morning business were also in that silence. The occasional scooter that passed by also did not disturb the peace and serenity of that morning. Even the cat hunting the squirrel and making a meal of it, was all taking place
in the silence.
Deepak- Man is confused. The more he wants to get out of confusion , the more it increases.
Murthy ji- What is the cause of this confusion.
Bashu ji – We are conditioned.
Deepak-Conditioning word is loaded.Let us use our own words. Other people’s words are other Peoples understanding. We have to begin from where we are. Understanding can’t be borrowed, imitated, copied, given to us, handed down.
Bashu ji- Conditioning word is indicative of a movement in time. It is acquired, the environment,the culture we live in,family, tradition, beliefs, it is our inheritance. Even our body is the result of environment.
Dr Indra- Yes, gathering, collecting, accumulating.
Bashu ji- krishna ji always said the word is not the thing. The description is not the described. The word becomes a hindrance. It clogs, colours, taints. So let us use words with care.
Murthy ji – We are caught in words, in symbols .
Deepak- The sound of the word, our own experience of it, our knowledge of it, forms an idea, solidifies and we start having a relationship with the idea ,the actual is lost.
Murthy – We live in a virtual world of ideas, concepts.
Murthy ji – Yes, Working in a limited field.
CHAPTER 2
(Day 12 to 20)
Day 12
Sirs, The teachings have great power. Thrice in my life I have been on the verge of suicide and the teachings have brought me back. They heal you. Do you understand? A person has been in great sorrow, suffering, despair, been on the edge of self- destruction, on a precipice. He has struggled, escaped into all sort of things, nationalism, social work, religious beliefs,all sorts of escapes. And such a person comes to you and says
” IT IS POSSIBLE TO CROSS OVER ”
Bashu – Have you changed.?
Deepak – No, Sir, First see this. Just see this.
See the great honesty of it, the pathos of it.
Does this not shake you. Does it touch you?
Bashu- We all suffer.
Murthy ji- What is our action when we are faced with a catastrophe.We try to put it down, or we look the other way, or try to find a refuge in something or the other.
Dr. Indra – Or create an opposite pole and then pursue it.
Deepak- Have been through all of that. Seen that it does not work.
Murthy – What according to you is that action that will free me.?
Deepak- Sirs, Please, I Insist, not because I want to dominate you, but because I love you.
See this with your whole being,with tears in your eyes, as a man who is drowning.
Bashu- Yes, either we are insensitive to it, or we immediately want to act on it, it is uncomfortable state, we don’t like it, we just want to get rid of it.
Deepak — Yes, Yes. Now wait, wait, Sirs. All this is a reaction. So can I say, we live in reaction. Our action is always a reaction, because we move — Cause, effect, then effect becomes the cause.
Day 13
Sirs, Yesterday we covered a great deal of distance. We will try to go into it a little bit more. Perhaps it will reveal something.
I want to make it absolutely clear that We are all sailing in the same boat.But I may have unearthed something, which I feel is important, valuable, and want you to see it.
But I may be wrong.
Dr. Indra- When there is Not the desired result it is natural to feel that there is something wrong with our approach.
Murthy ji- Yes, that is logical to conclude.
Bashu ji – The result depends on how you approach. The goal limits the search. We search for limited Goals. He said watch your fear, loneliness, jealousy, anger, ambition, the longings,desires ,be aware.
Murthy – We have been doing it. But nothing has changed.
Bashu – At the back of awareness, say of fear, there is allways a motive to be rid of it. Some amount of clarity, stability, satisfaction, some modification does come about through the teachings. But there is no breakthrough.
Dr Indra – How is Krishnamurti different from any other phychologist or philosopher? They also get results, reduce anxiety, pain, depression, frustration. They also heal. If you read other religious texts they also act on you, give you a sence of assurance, some amount of tranquility, peace. Don’t they.
Deepak- Definitely. It has a soothing effect. Even deep breathing exercises, meditation, etc do have a effect on your overall happyness, being. They slowdown your thoughts, so you become calm, your anxiety subsides, .
Bashu ji- They put your mind to sleep.
Murthy ji- I always wondered why there are so manny temples, Yoga Centres, mushrooming around. Now I get it , they are Therapy Centres.
The more the turmoil, conflict ,the more the demand for some panacea,healing centres.
Deepak- But society is not getting heald, it is merely patchwork, just blocking the blood from oozing out of the deep wounds. Maintaining the status Quo , modification masquerading in the garb of CHANGE.
Day 14
Sirs, We are living on this side of the river. On this side of the river there is fear, anxiety, loneliness, misery,achievement and the incumbent frustration of non achievement competition, jealousy and ultimately VIOLENCE, WAR. There is no freedom, love.
Murrhy – We have to accept life as it is.
Bashu – If we had accepted life as it is, we would not come to krishnamurti.
Dr. Indra- We are dissatisfied with our life, the way things are. But we don’t know what to do.
Krishnamurti has given us a new hope. So we hope to resolve our phychological problems.
Deepak- We are living on this side of the river, with some fleeting pleasures and perennial pain.
A man of krishnaj’is stature comes along and says, be aware of your fear. So we are being aware of fear, year after year.Most of us are stuck there. Why?
Murthy ji- When you see the whole movement of fear, it reveals its true nature. You see the mechanical movement we call fear, the great intensity, the volume of it. When you see the movement, you also see that there is an inward resistence to it, a commotion, a disturbance. When you see this you also see the see- er who is seeing this, you realize that the see er is breeding this. So seeing the individual branches which are offshoots of the trunk.
Deepak – Quite true. Then you have to jump. When you jump the see- er and the seen both dissolve. So now the whole field of the known has been seen and exposed. It is finished you are out of it. This jump is the difficult part for it is a leap in the darkness. You don’t know what the outcome will be. To take this jump everything has to be kept aside, even the person who is jumping has to be kept aside. That is why it is an impossible task.
Bashu ji – Do you mean to say that you have to see everything that is on this side of the river.
Deepak-You have to also to come to this, that as long as I live on this side of the river I can never be free, whole, complete.
When you see the uselessness of working, struggling,acting in the known field. It ends. Then this side is the other side,there is no other side. .
Day 15
So, Sirs. If you ask how then you are still within the known. Krishna ji used to say ” Don’t come here with a small bucket” I always wondered what he meant by that. But today this is clear to me what the philosophers, thinkers, psychologist, religious teachers,religions, motivational speakers, preachers are doing .
They are trying to rearrange the parts to arrive at a suitable whole. The psychologists are trying to modify, rearrange,reprogram, for desired result.
Murthy ji- Yes, The Small bucket is for little ends. Somebody wants a release from loneliness, somebody is trying to overcome some loss. There are very very few people who want to go beyond the mere eradication of individual suffering. They ask a broader question, whether suffering is an inalienable part of life or whether it is acquired.
Bashu ji – We are content with the small bucket. If we are sad we seek happiness, if we are in conflict we seek a release. If we are afraid we seek freedom from fear. Over time our fear does reduce but we do not enter a new dimention, a new way of living, which is free from conflict.
Deepak- Sirs, it is very simple. Keep it that way. The small bucket, since it is small and can draw only a little water, clears little doubts, but complete understanding does not take place. The whole mattress is torn, no amount of repairing, stitching part after part will ever repair it completely. Why don’t you just throw it off . The whole of it. Just throw it. Just walk away. Become a stranger, to everything you have collected.
Day 16
The Empty Mind
It is only the Empty Mind that can see ,understand ; come upon something that is new, true. Such a mind is not burdened by concepts , ideas ,theories , likes ,dislikes, knowledge, experience or any man made structure. It is innocent of time.
Q How does this emptiness come about.
A. That’s a difficult question .I really don’t know why or how it happens.
May we go into it. Perhaps it may unfold something .
A Or it may not.
Q Yes.
A The brain has to admit it’s incapability.
Q That it Does not know.
A Yes.
Q And carry on with the old ways.
A No.No. Old way is trying to solve the mess.
Q So then what?
A It Stops.
Q Then ?
A Something strange happens.
Q What ?
A It starts to empty itself ,generally this happens at night with me.
Q why ?
A May be Because during the day you have been attentive.
Q Is attention the only factor?
A No , one of the factors .
Q What could be the others.
A Love , humility, an honesty, sincerity,a feeling that I am part of the movement of life, a state of non commitment, standing Alone. A state of mind not contaminated by time.
Q Would that be all.
A The mind has to finish with the known.
Q Is that All.
A It is difficult to pin point any particular thing.
I can’t know this. But maybe you can find out.
This boy was different from the very beginning.
When other children were playing he was reading the religious texts. He had a streak of goodness, kindness, self- less ness. He had a great love for truth and would not easily lie. He knew from early days that truth was the most important thing in life. Wealth did not attract him. His only urge to this day has been to do good, do some good for mankind.
Off- course these may just be ideas. I can not say.
Day 17
Sirs, It is the intensity that wipes away the false. It has to be a matter of life and death.
It is like standing on the precipice. On the precipise, nothing can save you, but there is urgency, there is no time to think, nothing to guide you, it is just a full stop. You have to just face yourself, there is no where to hide. There is just energy, something not born of the known, time,
Murthy ji – It is not clear what you are trying to convey.
Deepak – When you are dying without water, then everything other than water looses it’s value, significance. It becomes unessential.
Sirs, I will tell you a story, something which happened with me. It may help.
We were two friends and we had gone to Dudhwa National Park. He was the elder one and I was younger and I leaned heavyly on him.
One day I strayed into the jungle, being of an adventurous nature , in my zeal to explore I went deep inside. It is a dense forest if you have been there. Suddenly I realised that I had lost my way. I pannicked. I ran here, I ran there.
I started sweating all over franticcally trying to search a way out of the forest. Suddenly I stopped. When I stopped I saw the way. Far into the night, I heard the dangling of bells ; the type of bells they tie around the cows. I started walking towards the noise and soon found tge road.
So, I am saying Sirs, Why don’t we just stop.
Day 18
Sirs, Krishnamurti is not an armchair philosopher you can discuss in the comfort of your living rooms. It is hard work and one has to burn every single moment. Even in ones sleep one has to be aware. Either you go all the way, or don’t come to the teachings. Because if you come halfway, you will only add krishnamurti to your problems, which is what most of us have done.
Murthy ji- The teachings do touch us at some level but they don’t go deep enough.
Bashu ji- They just scratch the surface.
Deepak – May be the mind does not allow it to go deep enough.
Murthy ji- Yes, it wants to stay relevant , in control.
Dr indra- It is based on more and more.
Deepak- The new threatens it’s existence. It does not want to die.
Murthy ji- There are historical records of people changing instantly, ANGULIMAL, VALMIKI. The truth penetrated so deeply that they were helpless.
Deepak- The more intellectual, the more well read, the more articulate, the more sophisticated, the more knowledge, the more ideas and beliefs ; the harder the covering.
Murthy – Man has become very very complex.
Bashu ji- One has to be simple. A farmer, going about his simple chores may be closer to truth, than the most erudite scholar.
Deepak- Sirs, If you don’t mind I will share something personal with you. I had gone to Madras with my friend Mr. Suresh Manjani to hear his talk. It was the Second Last talk of his life. A few of us were gathered on the path leading to the podium. As he came I saw a very simple, humble man walking along . He had some green oil on his head. It was the first time I saw him without the Image. I could sence what he had been saying. That day I really listened to his talk, it was a devine experience.
Day 19
We never really listen. We listen only to the people who have power, position or wealth. We never really see the beggar on the street or the watchman or the rickshaw wallah, the coolie. If we did , it would be difficult not to be touched, not to feel for them.We have become so hard, only concerned with ourself. We do not have any relationship with nature of which we are a part. Our pursuits -Materialistic ,ambition, seeking, pleasure soon consume and devour us. We are just beggars always wanting more and more physically as well as psychologically .
Murthy – The more hard we become, the more anguish we invite.
Bashu – We live on the surface and never taste the deep silences of the morning.
Deepak- By listening to life you learn a gread deal more than what you learn from books. You are agitated, disturbed and you be with nature and soon you are calm, composed, quite.
Murthy – What would you say why it happens?
Bashu – Your thoughts slow down. Since they slow down, you are able to watch closely and there is clarity. Meditation also works in the same way.
Dr Indra – What is meditation. ? Is it a practice that involves focusing or clearing your own mind for desired ends.
Bashu- Generally people use it for this purpose.
Deepak- Ah, No Sir. If there is a purpose, a method there can not be meditation. But it does help. Many things were revealed to me in my meditations, which I used to do for 2- 3 hours everyday.
Bashu ji- Even krishnaji meditated for 2-3 hours everyday as stated by Pupul Jaykar, if I am not mistaken.
Deepak – It does clear a little field, but that it can bring about the final breakthrew, that I doubt. Besides meditation means different things to different people. But we can understand it.
Bashu ji- Controlling thought is OUT.
Deepak- In my adolescence because of religious purposes , I used to control sexual urges and desires. IT BACKFIRED.
Murthy ji- It is a complex subject.
Deepak – Whatever human beings touch, they make it complex. Have we NOT been meditating all these days. IF WE ARE TRADING IN IDEAS IT IS NOT MEDITATION, but if we are dealing in facts, exploring, probing, looking, which is a type of fundamental research, neither accepting not rejecting, having no preferences ; it is more or less Meditation.
Do you see it. Would you agree?
Day 20
Sirs, I had started reading Krishnamurti probably in the year 1974 and was pursuing my graduation in commerce From V. S. S. D College, kanpur at the time.A person by the name if Rajan Babu Agarwal was a frequent visitor to a friends home. It was there I saw this book, The Penguin krishnamurti Reader, in his hand. I read it and it moved me greatly. My journey began from there to this day.
I never understood anything of his books. But they had a strange effect on him being of a very senstive temperament.
But It was only in 2018,when my wife died that I started to understand somewhat. Her death had opened a window for me.
Murthy ji – ( laughing) You want our wives also to die.
Deepak – Oh, No. Don’t take it that way. ( laughter)
Bashu ji-You were terribly dependent on your wife. You never did anything, She managed everything for you.
Deepak – Yes.But at that time I had a hunch that I would find truth.
Murthy ji Did you find truth?
Murthy ji – At that time you were very keen to enter the Foundation.
Deepak- I had always been keen on working in the Foundation. But entry was denied. In some way it did me good. I learned to walk on my own legs.
Sirs, Three things have greatly helped me. Meditation , constant grilling by Dr Indra Singh Rathod and the repeated rebuffs I received from Shri. Suresh Manjani.
Bashu ji- Have you found truth. Are you enlightened.?
Deepak – Suresh Ji said ,” either you are in deep illusion or you are enlightened.” Since that day I am trying to figure out whether I am enlightened or in illusion ,but with little success
I feel Freedom is more important than all other things and anybody can come to it.
Even if Not, the false can be seen. Yes , the false can be seen .To see the false is important.To see that my opinion, judgement, agreement, disagreement, belief, ideas, ; may not be true. For this, doubt has to invited, doubt not only in the outward movement of the me, but the very ground where the me is born. Doubt can break the hardest covering of a thousand years.